Lewis Tanzos

30 August, 2003

Unto the East Kingdom College of Heralds and all others who do receive this letter, greetings from Tanczos Istvan, Eastern Crown Herald!

This LoR contains decisions on the letter dated 03 May 2003. There were 15 numbered items.

Commentary was received from the following people or groups (sometimes listed under the name of the person who actually sent the commentary to me): Margaret Holmwood, Knut, Arval Benicoeur, Cahan Kyle, Klaus the Red, Tibor of Rock Valley, Reynard des Montaignes, Cateline la souriete de la mor, Kolosvari Arpad, Ulric von der Insel, Yosef Alaric, Aceline Barrett, Rowen Cloteworthy, Eldritch of Sylvan Glen, and Abselon.

The usual immense thanks are sent to all those who commented!

In service,

Istvan Eastern Crown

1 Agnes Edith Godolphin (F) - new name forwarded

No major changes. The submitter would like her name to be changed to be authentic for 'late 16th century England'. She would like to keep the middle name 'Edith' if the use of middle names by women can be documented to the late 16th century in England, but is willing to drop it if otherwise. She would also prefer the spelling 'Godolphin' if it is documentable to the same time period, but is willing to accept the spelling documented below otherwise. 'Agnes' is mentioned in Withycombe, 3rd ed., p. 6, under that header: 'From the 12th to 16th C. Agnes was one of the commonest English female names'. 'Edith' is also found in Withycombe, p. 93, under that heading: 'Edith remained common all through the Middle Ages.' 'Godolphin' is found in Reaney & Wilson, Revised Ed., p. 195: 'John Godolghan, 1508'.

Withycombe p. xliii has a discussion on double given names. The early examples given by Withycombe (John William Whytting, 1389-1432 and John Philip Capel 1363) may be unmarked patronymics rather than actual second given names. The later examples (Thomas Posthumus Hoby, Robert Browne Lilly b. 1593, Arthur Rous Russhe b. 1564, Thomas Maria Wingfield 1527-37), seem to indicate that the occasional non-royal "middle names" in the 16th century were not just another given name but a mother's maiden name or a reference to birth circumstances. (I would guess 'Maria' in a man's name would indicate a dedication to the Virgin and may indicate a difficult birth or a sickly infancy.) One could make the argument that Edith could be a surname. Reaney & Wilson p. 151 under Edith indicates that Edith became a surname, though the latest form cited is John Idyth' dated 1327.

Note that the spelling Godolphin is the modernized spelling, and Laurel may possibly change to the documented form, Godolghan, when registering the name.

Agnes Godolghan is a name that would be definitely period. Agnes Edith Godolphin is definitely registerable and could possibly be period.

2 Dragonet, The Fort of - new group name returned & new device returned

Or, on a dragon gules within a bordure embattled vert a laurel wreath argent.

There is no documentation with the name. It says 'Young or small dragon' in that space. There is also no documentation that this fits the naming patterns for period locations. There is a petition, signed by quite a few people, that refers to the 'Dragonet Garrison' but refers to the device only as 'this submission' and is therefore not valid for either the name or the armory.

The format for a petition is defined in the administrative handbook. It says

5. Evidence of Support - Submissions involving the branch name or arms of an active branch must include evidence of support for the action on the part of a majority of the active members of the branch. In the case of branches with no ruling noble, this support may be demonstrated by a petition of a majority of the populace and officers or by a petition of the seneschal and at least three-quarters of the other local officers. In the case of branches with ruling nobles, such petitions must also include a statement of support from the ruling noble. A valid petition must include a clear description of the item submitted; either the blazon or emblazon is sufficient for a petition regarding branch arms, though both are preferable. If a submission would result in the registration or modification of the Branch Name or Branch Arms of a kingdom, principality or equivalent branch, support must be demonstrated by the results of a poll conducted in the relevant official newsletter and certified by the seneschal of the appropriate branch. Branch badges, order or award names, and other Branch names (such as names for guilds, herald's titles, etc.) do not require evidence of support at the Laurel level. Kingdom may require it if they so desire, for their internal procedures.

This petition did not include the submitted form of the name, which means it is invalid for the group name. It does not include either an emblazon or a blazon, and is therefore invalid for the armory.

No documentation was submitted, and none could be found that was sufficient to show that the submission matches naming practices for medieval groups. This name must therefore be returned. Submitters should be aware that 'Fort' is an alternate designation for a 'Stronghold', not for a shire. Arval Benicoeur has offered his assistance to the group in creating a period name, and we will be giving the submitters his contact information.

The armory, were it drawn properly, is clear of conflict. The bordure is not properly proportioned. The line of a properly drawn bordure follows the edge of the shield. This appears to be "Sable, on an escutcheon Or a dragon gules charged with a laurel wreath argent." As such, it is in violation of the Rules for Submission, section VIII.1.c.ii, layer limit. It is therefore returned for redraw, so that it appears to have a bordure.

3 Domnall Brewster (M) - new name forwarded & new device returned

Vair, in pale three foxes passant gules.

No major changes. The submitter is interested in having his name changed to be authentic for 'Scotts-Gaelic 9th-10th Century'. 'Domnall' from A Simple Guide to Constructing 12th Century Scottish Gaelic Names by Sharon Krossa, at http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/simplescotgaelicnames12.shtml (PCA). 'Brewster' is an occupational surname based on the forms defined in Scottish Names 101, also by Sharon Krossa, at http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/scotnames101.shtml (PCA).

The submitter should be aware that the personal name is in Gaelic while the surname is Anglicized. This is not a plausible authentic name. An authentic name would be all Gaelic (which tended not to do occupational surnames, especially in the desired time period) or all English (Donald Brewer). We can not make any of these changes, however, since the submitter specifically disallowed them.

It's also worth noting that Black does not give a dated period example of the specific spelling "Brewster", though he does have "Robert Brewester" 1480 and "Robert Broustar" 1487. The modern spelling is probably OK.

The device is in conflict with the armory of Merideth ni Shionnaigh (5/99, Middle) "Vair, a fox passant gules". There is a single CD for addition of two foxes. Please note that the foxes need to be drawn larger relative to the size of the field if the submitter wishes to use this motif in a resubmission. The submitter should also note that, in period, two-and-one would be a much more likely arrangement than 'in pale'.

4 Ellesbeth Donofrey - new badge forwarded

(Fieldless) Five mascles conjoined in cross argent.

Name registered in June of 1986, via the East.

This is clear of Liadaine of Cul Mor (1/87, Ansteorra): (Fieldless) Five mascles conjoined in cross between four sewing needles in saltire, points outward, argent. There is a CD for fieldlessness and one for the removal of the needles.

5 Faolan Dearg (M) - new name forwarded & new device returned

Azure, within an annulet argent, a wolf's head extended palewise to chief, erased at the shoulders argent, on a mount issuant from base Or, three annulets fretted gules.

No major changes. The submitter will allow changes to 'Dearg' as long as it still means 'red'. He wishes his name to be made authentic for an unspecified time/culture. He references for his documentation St. Gabriel reports 2278, 1567, 1561, and 797; though he does not summarize them nor provide photocopies. [ Dearg appears to be from report 2278, which cites 'laimhdearg' (red hand, 1369, 1417), though I can't figure out from where. Faolan appears in 1561, as Faolán, cited from O' Corrain & Maguaire under Fáelán. It is a late period name. Before 1200 it was spelled as the header form. ]

Submitted as "Faolan An Dearg", we have removed the article. Members of St. Gabriel had this to say about the name:

The 14th and 15th century examples of "laimhdearg" in Academy report 2278 are from the Royal Irish Academy's, Dictionary of the Irish Language: based mainly on Old and Middle Irish materials (Dublin : Royal Irish Academy, 1983) s.n. lam. A 12th century example is mentioned in note [4] ( as "laim.dearg", where the period represents a dot over the previous letter, showing lenition ) to that report, from a version of the Annals of the Four Masters. However, the existance of the byname "lamhdearg" does not mean that "an dearg" was also used. The definite article, "an", would not normally be used in such a byname, and that's what we find in the 8th century example , cited in Academy report 2150 note [4] (which references an "Aedán Derg"). So "Fáelán Derg" is a fine name for the 8th century and probably up to the 10th at least. The byname doesn't seem to have remained in use later, though. Mari neyn Bryan's "Index of Names in Irish Annals" has a late-period byname that means "red"; it is "ruadh" (late spelling) or "ruad" (early spelling).

"Faolán" is a late (post-1200) spelling of "Fáelán". Academy report 2669 is a better reference. "Faolán Ruadh" would be a fine later-period Irish name.

Due to this, we've removed the definite article from the submitted name.

The armory is being returned for two reasons. First, because the wolf's head is not identifiable. Many commenters were not able to identify it without the blazon. It is also not, as the blazon says, erased, which is what leads to the identifiability problems. Here's the current thinking on erased and couped from Laurel, from the November 2001 cover letter:

...Therefore, for purposes of recreating period armorial style for erasing, the erasing should (1) have between three and eight jags; (2) have jags that are approximately one-sixth to one-third the total height of the charge being erased; and (3) have jags that are not straight but rather are wavy or curved. The predominance of the three-jag erasing is such that it can be recommended throughout our period and across Europe. For purposes of recreating period armorial style for couping, the couping should be a smooth line which is either straight, slightly convex, a shallow concave, or a recognizable extreme concave. A straight line or a shallow curve can be recommended throughout our period and across Europe. Submissions which contain couped or erased charges that diverge significantly from the guidelines above risk being returned for unidentifiability or non-period style unless they are accompanied by documentation...
The submitter should be aware that a properly drawn version of this armory is about as far from actual period practice as one can be and still be registerable. Complexity of seven (argent, azure, Or, gules, annulets, wolf's head, mount), a charge within an annulet, and a distinctly non-period position for the head add up to something quite far from period practice.

6 Francesco Gaetano Greco de Edessa - resub badge forwarded

Per fess enarched gules and vert, a San Domingo crucifix argent charged with a Christ and characters sable.

Badge returned from the 2002-October ILoI for having an argent charge on an argent cross. The submitter has re-done the submission with a sable Christ, which was the original intent. The name was registered (as Francesco Gaetano Greco da Foresta Orientale ) in August 1998, via the East. His name change to Francesco Gaetano Greco de Edessa was on the Feb 2003 Eastern Internal LoI, which has not yet been decided.

Francesco has provided documentation that the San Domingo Crucifix is a period artifact. As such, Laurel gets to decide whether it is an acceptable charge. Please note the following laurel return from January 1997:

Francesco Greco. Badge. Per fess enarched gules and vert, a San Dominio crucifix argent. This is being returned for violating VII.7.a., armorial identifiability. While evidence was produced that crucifixes were used in period, they had the figure of Jesus in a different tincture than that of the underlying cross. With the entire crucifix in one tincture, it blurs into one amorphous mass. Making the underlying cross one tincture and Jesus another should take care of this problem.
Since this is the same submitter, and he has corrected the original problem, the submitted armory should be acceptable.

7 Godlefe Bury (f) - new name forwarded & new device returned

Purpure, a cross crosslet fitchy argent.

The submitter wishes her name to be changed to be authentic for 1380-1430 England. 'Godlefe' occurs around 1508 in East Anglia, according to the Academy of S. Gabriel (NPCA and no mention of where Gabriel says so). 'Godeleva' is found in Women's Names From Early 13th Century England by Talan Gwynek (NPCA, no URL given). There are several spellings and the submitter prefers the one given. 'Bury' is found in Mills' English Place-Names p. 65, s.n. 'Bury' dated in several forms between 974 and 1194. It is also in Reaney, p. 32 s.n. 'Berry' dated in several forms between 1202 and 1320. Lastly, it is a header spelling in Ekwall, p. 74 s.n. 'Bury' with dated spellings from 974 through 1311. These latter three sources are in Appendix H of the Administrative Handbook and thus do not require photocopies.

[ Talan's page can be found at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/eng13/eng13f.html and thus does not require photocopies, but a URL would have been nice! Which 'Reaney' is meant is not specified, though I assume it means The Origin of English Surnames ]

The name is very plausible, but not in the modernized spelling. Godlefe appears in Reaney & Wilson, p199 sn. Goodliff, cited in 1508 in the submitted spelling. Laurel may change this to have spelling more period for the submitter's choice of time period, if one can be found.

The device is in conflict with the armory of Sigenoth the Blissful (January 1998, AEthelmearc): Per pale sable and vert, a Latin cross bottony argent. and Quarterly sable and vert, a cross bottony argent. In both cases, there is but one CD for the field, since a cross crosslet fitchy is heraldically identical to a cross bottony. The submitter should also be aware of David of Moffat (07/94, An Tir): (Fieldless) A cross crosslet argent quarter-pierced gules and William of Weir (11/80, Ansteorra) Per bend wavy azure and bendy wavy argent and azure, in sinister chief a cross crosslet flory argent., both of which are probably clear, but both of which should be considered in a re-design.

8 John MacGuire - new device forwarded

Azure, in fess three needles and in chief three bees Or.

Name registered in August of 1989, via the East.

9 Klaus Rother von Schweinichen (M) - new name change forwarded

Current Name: Klaus the Red

No changes. 'Klaus' is in Socin's Mittelhochdeutches Namenbuch, pp. 6-7: 'Clawes, Claus, Klaus (1387)'. 'Rother' is found in Bahlow's Dictionary of German Names, 2nd ed. (tr. Gentry) p. 423 under 'Roth': "Rother (Silesian) [means] a red-haired or red-bearded person. Since red hair is hereditary, Roth became a family name very early: c.f. Brothers Jeckel and Tilke Rote, 1350". 'Schweinichen' also in Bahlow, p. 464: 'Slav.-Ger. pl.n. Near Bolkenhain in Silesia, known through Hans von Schweinichen, a knight at the Liegnitz court around 1590-1600'. Old name registered in September 2000, via the West.

Rother is in Brechenmacher, p 438-9, s.n. Rot(h)er, lists a Hermann Roter 1279, Eberh. Roter 1424 and Hand Roter 1460. No dated forms could be found with the 'h'.

10 Lucan von Drachenklaue - resub device forwarded

Sable, on a dragon's jambe erect and erased argent a pomme maintined in the claws and on a chief argent a crown ancient sable.

Name registered in October of 1986 via the East. Lucan was created a duke in October of 1994, also in the East. [ Proof for the latter can be found at the East Kingdom's online Order of Precedence site's list of Dukes and Duchesses: http://jducoeur.org/Prec/Awards/Ducal.html ]

11 Magdalena Cortez (F) - new name forwarded & new device forwarded

Gules, a mullet between in saltire four crescents points outward argent.

No major changes. 'Magdalena' from 16th Century Spanish Women's Names by Elsbeth Ann Roth at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/spanish.html. 'Cortez' from Apellidos Castellano-Leoneses by Diez Melcon

[ Hernando Cortez invaded Mexico from 1519-1521, found in the Encyclopedia Brittanica. I can not find the citation in Melcon]

Melcon, p. 271, s.n. Cortes, section 254 has 'Cortes' dated in that spelling to 1255, 1236, 1258, 1287. We have left the name as submitted, due to the gentleman who invaded Mexico, and will let Laurel decide whether or not to change to the actual documented form.

There was some complaint as to the fact that the mullet was too small to be the sole primary charge, that the primary group is the mullet and the crescents. If this is the case, there is a conflict with Caid (08/79, Caid) Azure, four crescents conjoined in saltire, horns outward, argent. because there is only a CD for the field. Eastern Crown is not convinced of this, and is sending it up for the College of Arms to discuss.

12 Mercedes de Calafia (f) - new name change forwarded & new device change forwarded
Current Name: Mercedes Bohdanovna

Purpure, a pen bendwise Or within a bordure erminois.

No major changes. The submitter wants her name to be changed to be authentic for 'Spanish' language/culture. 'Mercedes' is already registered to her. 'Calafia' is the name of a barony in Caid, registered 'at some point' (yeah, that's a quote) with its device being registered in 1979. Current name and device (Per pale and per bend, counter-ermine and gules, in bend sinister two quill pens bendwise Or within a bordure counterchanged.) registered in August of 1984, via the East.

We can not change the name to be authentic for the desired culture. 'Mercedes' did not come into use in Iberia until 1690. It is also impossible to create authenticity with an SCA barony's name used as the byname.

13 Olwynn ni Chinneidigh - new badge forwarded

(Fieldless) A quill bendwise sinister sable enfiled of an annulet argent.

Name registered in October of 1991, via the East.

14 Richild La Gauchere - new device returned

Vert, a sun Or charged with a fleece vert.

Name registered in June of 1995, via the East.

The device is in exact conflict with that of Patrick of Innisfree (6/76) Vert, on a sun Or a dexter hand appaumy couped at the wrist vert. There is no CD for the change to just the type of the tertiary. RfS X.4.j.ii does not apply in this case because a sun is not a voidable charge.

The submitter should be aware of the following other conflicts when re-designing: Angela of the Meadows (01/1973): Vert, on a sun in glory three roses palewise in chevron gules, slipped and leaved vert., Kriemhild of Stonecroft - (01/1974): Vert, a mullet of nine points throughout Or, thereon a turkeycock's head [Gallopavo meleagris] erased proper., and Sunny of Somerset (08/1979): Vert, on a sun Or a rabbit and a guinea pig combattant sable orbed Or., all of which have a single CD for multiple changes to the tertiary groups. Additionally, the following are conflicts with a single CD for the field, but no CD for the change to only the type of the tertiary: Caerthe, Barony of (11/1982, via Atenveldt): Sable, on a sun throughout Or an aspen leaf vert. and Christina of the Runes (3/1972): Purpure, on a sun Or a wingless dragon vert, embowed in a circle head to dexter with its feet resting about an annulet purpure.

15 Robin dit Dessaint (m) - new name forwarded & new device forwarded

Or, on a chevron inverted azure between a rose gules slipped and leaved vert and a frog tergiant azure three hearts palewise Or.

There is no documentation with the name; all the submitter includes is a list of his ancestors. [ Robin is found as a 'pet form' of Robert in Talan Gwynek's Late Sixteenth Century Welsh Names at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/talanWelsh16.htm#namelist , which references Late 16th Century English Given Names by Brian Scott (Talan Gwynek) which can be found at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/eng16/eng16.html . Dessaint appears as a header form in Dauzat. It says " << [famille] des Saint >>. V. Désambrois" This appears to refer to the heading for Désambrois, where the construction is said to mean '<< [fils ou membre du de la famille] des Ambrois >>', which translates roughly as 'a child of or a member of the family of the surname Ambrois', which means this citation means 'child or member of the family of the surname 'Saint'. Neither reference has dates. ]

The ban on "X called Y" names was overturned by Jaelle of Armida for Latin, German, and French in July 1996, so the form is OK; the only remaining problem is documentation. Morlet, Marie-Therese, Etude d'anthroponymie picarde, les noms de personne en Haute Picardie aux XIIIe, XIVe, XVe siecles (Amiens, Musee de Picardie, 1967), p.27, documents Robin in that form from the 13th through 15th centuries. The same source shows the use of "dit" in bynames, e.g. "Thierri dit de Suisi" 1292, p.350. That, with the citation from Dauzat, is sufficient documentation to send this to Laurel.

The device is VERY complex. The SCA limits complexity to eight, which is what this device has (four tinctures plus four different types of charge). This is a very non-period design. It is, however, registerable.