Lewis Tanzos

05 Oct 2003

Unto the East Kingdom College of Heralds and all others who do receive this letter, greetings from Tanczos Istvan, Eastern Crown Herald!

This LoR contains decisions for submissions which were on the 2003-August-22 Letter of Intent, which had 12 numbered items.

Commenters included: Cnute, Elias Gedney, Aryanhwy merch Catmael, Arval Benicoeur, Ulric von der Insel, Julia, Marcus Blackaert & Company, Esperanza Razzolini d'Asolo, Sabine Berard, Harold von Auerbach & Aine Callaghan, Yosef & Aceline, Klaus Rother & Company, and Ariel de Narbonne

As has become my custom, documentation submitted with the forms is in bold face, and the discussion and additional documentation, taken from commentary and additional research, is in normal text following the bold text.

In service,

Istvan Eastern Crown

1 Ailionora Inghean Ronan - Resub Device Forwarded

Argent, a quill pen and trumpet inverted sable crossed in saltire between four trefoils and a border nebuly vert.

Name registered May 2003, via the East.

The resubmission has fixed the drawing problem with the bordure.

2 Anastasia Guta - New Device Forwarded

Per pale purpure and argent, a chevron per pale ermine and counter-ermine.

Name registered in February 1997 via the East.

3 Astridr Nilsdottir (F) - New Name Forwarded & New Device Forwarded

Or, a fox dormant and a chief indented gules.

'Astridr' found undated in a list of Scandinavian names ( http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~tomo/merp/filez/names/Scandinavian.html) and dated to 1019 in the spelling 'Astridar' on what seems to be a list of dated spellings of 'Astradh' in Swedish (URL is hard to read, possibly http://www.dal.lu.se/dal). 'Nils' is found, undated, in the same list of Scandinavian names ( http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~tomo/merp/filez/names/Scandinavian.html).

'Ástríðr', p 8 and 'Njáll', p 13 are both found in Geirr-Bassi Haraldsson's The Old Norse Name.

The submiter's article for Astridr is actually http://www.dal.lu.se/sofi/smp/a-namn.htm, which is from the SMP web pages. Note that if one follows the link from there to Astridh, one finds a dated form from 1019 - 'Astridr Nials'. Nordiskt runnamnslexikon ( http://www.dal.lu.se/runlex/pdf/lexikon.pdf ) has several runic spellings, including "astrið" and "astriðr"

Since the submitter requested no major changes and some form and spelling of the name is likely legal we're leaving this for Laurel to change if so desired.

The device is clear of that of Emma la Rousse d'Argentan (April 1996, via the East): Or, a fox dormant gules and on a chief indented sable three pheons Or. with a CD for the tincture of the secondary and a CD for the removal of the tertiaries.

4 Brice Longarm (M) - New Name Forwarded & New Device Forwarded

Per bend Or and azure, a dragonfly vert and a turtle Or.

'Brice' found in Black's Surnames of Scotland s.n. Bryson 'son of Brice', p. 111. 'Alanus Filius Bricii' 1376, 'Duncan Briceson' 1392.

Submitted as "Brice the Long Armed", the submitter requested authenticity. We find this Laurel precedent:

Submitted as ...the Brown-Eyed, English bynames were not formed from adjectival past participles. We have substituted the documented form. (Elisabeth Browneye, 9/94 p. 10)

As such, since we can not find 'Longarm', we have to construct it. Reaney & Wilson, has 'Langeheved' 1247 "Long head" s.n. Longhead; 'Longschankes' 1315 "long shanks" s.n. Longshanks; and examples meaning "long back", "long beard", "long hand", "long leg", "long nose", "long tail", and "long toe", all s.n. Longenow. Also, Jönsjö has p. 118 'Longebayn' 1296, 'Langebayn' 1300, 'Langbayn' 1368 (long-leg); 'Langhals' 1197-8 (longneck); 'langshank' 1278 (long-leg) - just to stick with body parts. 'Arm' occurs more rarely. Jönsjö has p. 50 'Armstrang' 1279 and p. 88 'Fayrarmful' 1246; R&W p. 431 has 'Strongharme' 1379, 'Strongeitharme' 1581, 'Stronge in Arme' 1597.

5 Brunissende Dragonette de Brocéliande (F) - New Name Accepted

'Brunissende' is dated in that spelling to 1240 in Academy of St. Gabriel report #997 ( http://www.s-gabriel.org/997) which references the 13th century dating of the name in Cateline de la Mor's Names from Thirteenth Century Languedoc ( http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/cateline/languedoc.html ). 'Dragonette' is presented as a nickname meaning 'small female dragon'. The male form of the name, 'Dragonet', is found in French/Occitan Names from the XIII Century ( http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/ramon/occitan/occitan_cd.html) which notes that this is a modernized spelling; the original Occitan spelling is 'Dragonetz'. The name 'Dragonette' is found dated to 1195 in what appears to be a genealogical site ( http://www.chez.com/genwww/jlsoler/dat87.htm ). 'Brocéliande' is found, undated, in Dictionnaire de Géographie Historique de la Gaule et de la France, p. 66

Apologies for the inadequate citation on the Letter of Intent, I neglected to turn the page. All the Broceliande cite says is "Brodéliande, Brocéliante - V. Douna. However, the following page of the documentation is the page for Douna. Under Douna, p106, it says " Nom bret. (= forêt profonde) donné, au haut Moyen Age à la forêt de la Bretagne intérieure de Rennes à Carhaix - la forêt de Brocéliande de la tradition bret. - dont le reste le plus important est la forêt de Paimpont. (près Plélan-le-Grand, I.-et-V., confins Morbihan)" This translates (roughly) as "name from Brittany. (= profound forest). Donné, in the height of the middle ages in the forest of Brittany in the area of Rennes of Carhaix (?) - in the forest of Broceliande in traditional Brittany - of whose remainder, the most important is the forest of Paimpont.". Rennes is a place in France; modernly there is a university there (University of Rennes, www.univ-rennes1.fr ). There is also a modern-day hotel in Brittany, in Paimpont, called 'Relais de Broceliande'.

The problem is that Brocéliande, while actually a real place, is the mythic origin of Morgan le Fay and Merlin. Or maybe it's where Merlin and the fairy Viviane courted. The Columbia Encyclopedia, sixth edition, ( http://www.bartleby.com/65/br/Brocelia.html ) says the former. Since no major changes are allowed, we can't drop the locative, so this may very well be returned by Laurel as being presumptious, since you can't claim to be a magical being. However, it was a real place, so the submitter may get the benefit of the doubt.

The submitter also attempts to justify the name using a persona story. Persona stories have not been accepted as documentation since at least 1989.

6 Catherine le Potter (F) - New Name Forwarded & New Device Forwarded

Vert, between two domestic cats sejant respectant a mazer argent.

'Catherine' from Catherine of Aragon 1485-1536, Webster's New Biographical Dictionary. 'the Potter' is presented as an occupational byname.

Submitted as "Catherine the Potter", we have changed to be more authentic for 14-16th century England, as directed.

'Catherine' dated in that spelling to the late 16th century in Talan Gwynek's Late Sixteenth Century English Given Names ( http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/eng16/eng16alpha.html).

'le Potter' is dated to 1319 and 1332 in this spelling on p 184 of Fransson's Middle English Surnames of Occupation

Laurel may change to the spelling 'Kateryne', a documented 15th Century spelling of the given name (Withycombe, under Katharine, Katherine, Catharine, Catherine) to accede to the client's wishes for authenticity.

If the cats and mazer are considered co-primaries, this will conflict with Kathleen Erin-go-burne-the-Bragh (January of 1974) Vert, a chalice argent containing flames Or. and Alatheia Merryweather (November 2000, via the West) Vert, a Bengal tiger sejant contourny argent marked sable. with but one CD for addition of primary charges. We're pretty certain that this is not the case, since the mazer is relatively small relative to the size of the cats, so this is clear.

7 Elizabeth Darnley (F) - New Name Forwarded & New Device Forwarded

Per pale argent and azure, a chevron and in chief two irises counterchanged.

'Elizabeth' from Withycombe's Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names s.n. Elizabeth p. 99; first usage in England at the end of the 12th century, and in continuous use from the 13th century onwards. No direct evidence is presented for 'Darnley', but 'Darn-' as an element appears in several names (Darnton, 1583; Darntone, 1588, both from Julie Stampnitzky's Surnames in Durham and Northumberland, 1521-1615 , http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/genuki/Transcriptions/DUR/BMI.html) and '-ley' is a frequent element as well (Mawdeseley, 1476, p. 303; Kyngesley, 1421-2, p. 265; and Wygley, 1576, p. 491, all in Reaney & Wilson's A Dictionary of English Place Names ).


'Darnley' seems an eminently reasonable place-name. The individual parts are well-attested: Ekwall, p. 139, lists Darnale 1275, 1297, Dernhal 1240, -hale 1275 'hidden nook', Derneford 1200 'hidden ford'; Reaney & Wilson, p. 126, under Darnbrook 'hidden brook' has Dernbroke 1361, Dernebroke 1379, as well as de Darnale 13th c. (under Darnell) and p. 146 de Derneford' 1190, de Durneford 1255 (under Durnford). Gelling, pp. 198-207, in a long discussion on the place-name element 'leah', mentions Olney 'isolated wood', and Healey/Handley and variants 'high wood'; following up in R&W, one finds p. 330 under Olney: de Olney 1325; p. 227 under Henley: Heneley 1392; p. 224 under Healey: Heley 1439; and p. 215 under Handley: Hanley 1426, Handley 1611. So it seems to be very constructable.

Device is clear of Caitlín ní Dhubhghaill, Per pale argent and azure, a chevron between three dragons segreant counterchanged. and Owen Fitz Raven, Per pale argent and azure, a chevron counterchanged and in dexter chief an eagle's head azure. with one CD each for the change in type and number of secondaries.

8 Fíne of the Vale (F) - New Name Forwarded

'Fine' dated to that spelling to 805 in O'Corrain & Maguire's Irish Names, p. 99 s.n. Fine. Byname 'of the Vale' presented as a locative.

Submitted as "Fine of the Vale". The header and dated spelling in OCM is actually Fíne, so we have made that change. 'of the Vale' is not documented by the submitter, so here's what we came up with: Val (Le) is a header, p 694, in Dauzat & Rostaing's Dictionnaire étymologique de noms de lieux de France. It dates 'de Valle' to 1132, 'de Val' to 1200, and 'Vals' to 1080. Reaney & Wilson's Oxford Dictionary of English Surnames, p. 464 under Vale, gives the following dated spellings: de la Val 1190, del Val 1221, ate Vale 1327, Vale 1382, Vayle 1623. Bardsley's A Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames , p. 779, under Vale cites the forms del Val, de la Val 1273; del Vale, de la Vale, du Val Edw. I. Ekwall's Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place Names , p 489, gives a 'Vale Royal' in 1307. Mills' Oxford Dictionary of English Place Names, p360, gives 'Vale Royal' dated as 'Vallis Regalis' to 1277.

Given this, we can document the name as either an Irish-French mix or an Irish-English mix. English-Gaelic is considered a single step from period practice (called a 'weirdness' in SCA heraldry terminology. See the registration of Ian MacHenrik, 10/99). French-Gaelic is considered the same (see the registration of Maura MacPharlain, 02/00). Given that the dates (805 and 1080) are within 300 years, there is not another weirdness for temporal incompatibility. Lastly, using the Lingua Anglica allowance is not considered a weirdness: "At this time, there is not a weirdness for using the Lingua Anglica allowance." [Corwin of Saxony, 11/01, A-Ansteorra]. Since the College of Arms allows a single weirdness, we're sending this one up to Laurel.

9 Kateryne Segrave - Resub Device Forwarded

Argent, a pile inverted vert issuant from a ford.

Several commenters suggested that the blue upper stripe of the ford was a problem against the green of the pile. This was addressed in the Laurel return of the previous attempt at this device, which reads, in part: The ford is drawn with the blue stripe to chief, lying entirely against the vert pile inverted. This has insufficient contrast ... if the pile issued from the center of the ford (so that the top stripe on the ford laid partially against the field), there would not be a problem with having the blue stripe at the top of the ford. This is fixed with the redraw, addressing the other problem mentioned in the LoAR: As a general rule, we would expect a pile inverted to be somewhat thinner and thus issue from the center of the ford, rather than extend all the way across the ford.

Name registered on the April 2003 Laurel LoAR.

10 Scoithin mac Mhuireadhaigh - New Badge Forwarded

(Fieldless) A horse courant contourny within and conjoined to an annulet sable.

Name registered in January of 1997 via Meridies.

11 Scoithin mac Mhuireadhaigh - New Badge Forwarded

Vert, a horse courant contourny within and conjoined to an annulet argent.

Name registered in January of 1997 via Meridies.

This is X.2. Simple, and thus clear of Æthelwulf Cynricson of Stonegrave (January 1998, via Atlantia) Vert, a stag rampant within an annulet argent. and Eleanor d'Autun (September 1988, via Calontir) Vert, a fret couped within an annulet argent. through complete change of primary.

12 Yesunge Altan (M) - New Name Forwarded & New Device Forwarded

Vert, a pall argent between three suns Or, each charged with an annulet sable.

'Yesunge' is from Mongolian Naming Practices by Marta as-tu Mika-Mysliwy, from the Proceedings of the 1990 KWHS; no specific date is given and the whole text of the article is not included in which to find one, but what text is available seems to indicate that the names listed are from before the 1500's. 'Altan' is found in On the Documentation and Construction of Period Mongolian Names by Baras-aghur Naran ( http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/baras-aghur/mongolian.html), again undated, but the author of the article lists five period sources from which he drew the names he lists.

The given name also appears in Names of the Secret History of the Mongols, by H. Davenport, http://www.laohats.com/Names%20from%20The%20Secret%20History%20of%20the%20Mongols.htm . The same article has 'Altan' as a masculine given name (in a one element name). This is good, since the two-name pattern is also discussed in Baras-aghur Naran's article, and 'Altan' presented as a specific counter-example:

Period names of the n+n pattern are combined of two elements, both of which can stand on their own. The exception to this are names of this pattern that consist of a given name and and epithet. Examples of these are Al Altan (crimson gold), Qori Buqa (twenty bulls), and Mongke Temur (eternal iron).

The armory is clear of that of Benedict Finnian O'Bryan ( December 1982, via the West): Vert, a pall argent between a shamrock and two Celtic crosses Or. with a CD for type of secondary and a CD for the tertiaries.